# LXQT minimal installation

(oui) #1

Hi, I wish to use LXQT but only the minimal installation without the new app’s being absolutely not accustomed for me (perhaps progressively but not as the full installation does! All app’s are double after installation! The first one I would immediately install would be settings if it can useful work so). Is that possible and how do do it for ex. in Debian sid or buster or Deepin? Kind regards

(Alf Gaida) #2

The answer is easy: man apt

The long answer is: We don’t recommend minimal installations – as such installations are only for very experienced users. You are not, otherwise you would not ask. Only a hint: In Debian there are normal packages and meta-packages. Meta-packages do kind of bundle something. Enough hints for now. Umm - before i forget, i hereby not recommend not to install recommends or try circumvent them. If you do so it will result in some things:

• We will not help with any question about LXQt.
• We will not accept any bug report from you, not upstream nor distribution wise. We will close them unprocessed.
• As such minimal installation would criple LXQt and wreck the work of the developers and maintainers i would highly recommend to use something else or get a clue.

(Davide Stellati) #3

While true, I’d add that (on ubuntu) doing “sudo apt install --no-install-recomends lubuntu-desktop” gives you a perfectly functioning lxqt environment but without all the apps (the only “bad” thing is that lxqt file archiver is missing by default).

Of course this is an ubuntu only thing but I thought it worth mentioning.

(Pedram Pourang) #4

--no-install-recomends can cause all kinds of hassles (“Why doesn’t this or that work?..”), unless the user knows everything about LXQt components.

(Davide Stellati) #5

I agree it’s not the ideal user friendly approach (as seen by my file archiver comment) but it’s been working flawlessly for me this past week so I thought I’d chime in to comment. Probably lubuntu bundles more things than a regular lxqt minimal install and so seems more useable (but I’m just speculating here).

(Pedram Pourang) #6

Either you are an advanced user or you already have the recommended packages on your system.

Oh, I failed to see @agaida’s reply (the best); otherwise, I wouldn’t add mine.

As for lxqt-archiver, we’re still working on it. It’ll be ready for a release soon but the meaning of “soon” depends on various factors

(Alf Gaida) #7

@dastorm thanks to users like you i was forced to weaken the debian policy a bit and add things to dependencies that are normally recommends. For god sake please read the policy about dependencies and recommends.

More verbose: I’m really pissed about reading --no-install-recommends all few weeks. It works (and especially works for Ubuntu) because i as the maintainer added a few dependencies that should only be recommends. Here is the original conversation about, please don’t be upset about the used language, i will not edit the original:

2017-07-01  13:46:32 <agaida> xxxxxx: <BTS> Opened #866744 in src:libqtxdg by Alf Gaida <agaida@siducti...> «libqtxdg must depend on shared-mime-info». https://bugs.debian.org/866744
2017-07-01  13:47:03 <agaida> maybe this will ease the pain with mime-types a little bit - if not, it don't hurt
2017-07-01  13:47:45 <xxxxxx> agaida: wfm
2017-07-01  13:49:35 <agaida> some gtk apps provide strange things in their desktop files - so if one install audadious on LXQt audacious take over inodes - open a  folder with binaries might sound strange some times :D - for me it does
2017-07-01  13:50:06 <agaida> that was the problem with the nautilus and LXQt bug too
2017-07-01  13:50:15 <agaida> and there is not much we can do
2017-07-01  13:52:34 <xxxxxx> Ah ok
2017-07-01  13:52:38 <agaida> anyways - the popcon results after the stable release allow only one conclusion - we should re-think our dependencies and recommends and make the packaging more foolproof
2017-07-01  13:52:53 <xxxxxx> Good idea.
2017-07-01  13:52:55 <agaida> thats what i do right now
2017-07-01  13:52:59 <xxxxxx> \o/
2017-07-01  13:53:35 <agaida> it is only a wild guess - some users are to clever for us
2017-07-01  13:54:02 <agaida> so they think: Ok, LXQt is meant to be lean
2017-07-01  13:54:19 <agaida> apt install lxqt-core --no-install-recommends
2017-07-01  13:54:52 <agaida> or even better: apt install task-lxqt-destop --no-install-recommends
2017-07-01  13:55:32 <agaida> then they start into LXQt and find out that a) LXQt looks fucking ugly b) don't work as expected
2017-07-01  13:56:12 <agaida> some swearwords later they do most likely apt purge lxqt lxqt-*
2017-07-01  13:56:25 <agaida> and that leads to that situation:
2017-07-01  13:57:20 <agaida> sorry for the monster link
2017-07-01  13:59:12 <agaida> and that is not really the outcome i want to see long term
2017-07-01  14:04:43 <agaida> erm - not that there are misunderstandings - the install counter of libqtxdg and liblxqt is great and we should give no hint that apt purge libqt5xdg2 will remove the very most parts of LXQt from a system - thats a sign that users are interested in - and a good argument for official isos and live-isos
2017-07-01  14:05:15 <agaida> ^^ forget the word working
2017-07-01  14:09:41 <xxxxxx> ic
2017-07-01  14:30:08 <agaida> uploaded


As i said, i was kind of forced to do so - after a certain number of bug reports about LXQt not being prime time ready because of misguided users. And thats a bad situation. I prevent stripped down installations and force users with knowledge into installing a few packages they really don’t need (the Recommends: definition) because of this crap and i’m really sad about. Normally i’m a kind person and it take a while to provoke things like (condensed):

2017-07-01  13:53:35 <agaida> it is only a wild guess - some users are to clever for us
2017-07-01  13:52:38 <agaida> anyways - the popcon results after the stable release allow
only one conclusion - we should re-think our dependencies and recommends
and make the packaging more foolproof
2017-07-01  13:52:53 <xxxxxx> Good idea.


And i’m not really willing to discuss dependencies and recomments all the time. If there are valid arguments, i will do. Otherwise not.

PPS: No, i don’t think that our user are fools - it is often the combination of lack of knowledge and wrong and harmful advises.

(oui) #8

Hm… Ubuntu? But I already use 3 Debian children : Buster, SID and Deepin! Install one more to see a wonderful LXQT installation? Seriously?

In SID (where full KDE were preinstalled, and I did add esp. Konqueror as I did always use Konqueror if available about 20 years along, it was 2 decades before ‘the browser’ being able to be embedded!, apt install lxqt propose me now:

(Pedram Pourang) #9

Confirming the hassles caused by --no-install-recomends, I add that (for nth time, n>10):

This isn’t limited to Debian and its derivatives. Arch users of KDE may come to LXQt and say, “where is my Trash?”, “Why can’t I trust desktop entries?”, “I can’t browse the contents of my mobile”, etc. If they only paid attention to what’s called “Optional Dependencies” in Arch, they wouldn’t encounter any problem because they would install gvfs packages.

Xfce/lxde/gnome users may not encounter these problems but only by chance.

(oui) #10

I did now commute do Deepin. Deepin has no KDE pre installed (only a lot of KDE app’s) but the known Deepin screen and window manager.

Same test with apt install lxqt:

Es müssen 136 MB an Archiven heruntergeladen werden. Nach dieser Operation werden 402 MB Plattenplatz zusätzlich benutzt. Möchten Sie fortfahren? [J/n]

it seem’s to be completely unprobable to use LXQT as server and in small distributions (I did use it in SliTaz about one year along!)

Please come back to the land; you fly to far above the earth!

(Davide Stellati) #11

I’m pretty sure doing a --no-install-recommends on the lubuntu-desktop package is relatively harmless compared to doing it on lxqt-core which the former has as a dependency. The only things I found “missing” (but I wanted it to be so) were the lubuntu bundled apps. lubuntu-desktop has xscreensaver and lxqt-sudo as dependencies for example.

I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with people complaing after borking they’re install, but since it worked well for me I thought I might as well tell OP. I may have been mistaken stating it as a fact but I really think I didn’t deserve this amount of backlash. That said, I probably can’t even think of how many people come complaining after killing their install all on their own; so again, I’m sorry to have brought the topic up.

(Pedram Pourang) #12

Too many.

When I used Debian, I didn’t let any recommended package be installed implicitly (I don’t like implicit things) and I didn’t encounter any problem either but I knew what each package exactly did. My system was mine and I could do anything with it.

However, if I do so, I should take responsibility and not report any bug unless I install all recommended packages. Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen and has wasted so much time.

That being said, years ago, @agaida attacked me once because of that (we didn’t know each other) but I didn’t take it personally. IMO, he’s right.

(Davide Stellati) #13

Yes, this should be the approach everyone takes. Anyhow, I should have got the memo that minimal installs are frowned upon from the first reply to the thread so that’s on me. So no harm done

(Alf Gaida) #14

@dasstorm and @oui - there is a problem with --no-install-recommends. I was watering the debian policy about dependencies a bit. And yes, all derivatives except ubuntu use my packaging nearly unchanged. Deepin is a bit complicated, outdated as hell. For Ubuntu: Just have a look at the diff they provide - you will find that not much is changed.

apt changelog \$package will give you some insights.

And now to something completely different, the LXQt metapackages:
These packages exist only for the obvious reason: Making it easy to install LXQt in several possible ways - as in working for debian-installer (in the form of task-lxqt-desktop), or for user installs from a minimal netinst iso.

Package: task-lxqt-desktop
Depends: tasksel (= 3.53),
sddm,
sddm-theme-debian-elarun | sddm-theme-debian-elarun,
lxqt
Recommends: xsane,
orca,
libreoffice-gtk3,
synaptic,
libreoffice,
libreoffice-help-en-us,
mythes-en-us,
hunspell-en-us,
hyphen-en-us,
system-config-printer


That’s the debian LXQt desktop - so let’s see behind - the lxqt-core:

Package: lxqt-core
Depends: desktop-file-utils,
lxqt-themes | lxqt-theme,
lxqt-system-theme,
lxqt-config,
lxqt-globalkeys,
lxqt-panel,
lxqt-policykit,
lxqt-qtplugin,
lxqt-runner,
lxqt-session,
pcmanfm-qt,
qterminal
lximage-qt,
lxqt-branding-debian | lxqt-branding,
lxqt-powermanagement,
lxqt-sudo,
pavucontrol-qt | pavucontrol,
qlipper | clipit | xfce4-clipman,
qps,
qttranslations5-l10n,
xarchiver | ark | engrampa,
xscreensaver
Suggests: feathernotes,
firefox | www-browser,
lxqt,


So that is the basic LXQt system, stripped down to the barely needed things to call it lxqt. The lxqt package will install more lxqt components and add some more components as in:

Package: lxqt
lximage-qt,
lxqt-branding-debian | lxqt-branding,
lxqt-core (= 29),
lxqt-powermanagement,
lxqt-sudo,
pavucontrol-qt | pavucontrol,
qlipper | clipit | xfce4-clipman,
qps,
qterminal,
qttranslations5-l10n,
sddm-theme-debian-elarun | sddm-theme | lightdm | gdm3 | lxdm | slim | nodm,
xarchiver | ark | engrampa,
xfwm4 | x-window-manager
Recommends: audacious | clementine | qmmp,
cmst | nm-tray | network-manager-gnome | plasma-nm | wicd,
feathernotes,
gucharmap,
firefox | www-browser,
meteo-qt,
qpdfview,
quassel | quassel-client | hexchat | irssi | weechat,
screengrab,
smplayer,
smtube,
thunderbird | claws-mail | mutt
Suggests: calibre,
compton-conf,
juffed,
nomacs,
obconf-qt,
qtpass,
qt5-style-kvantum,
shutter,
vokoscreen


As one can see there are a lot of things possible - just play with the alternatives and recommends a bit - but not install with --no-install-recommends, as this trigger work for all to be installed packages. And that’s an outcome what even die-hards not want.

By default debian installs recommends - there are good reasons to do so, a good and lean lxqt might look like:

apt install lxqt-core openbox cmst \
lxqt-about- lxqt-branding-debian- lxqt-branding- \
lxqt-powermanagement- pavucontrol-qt- pavucontrol- \
qps- xscreensaver-


Note that i have the alternatives i wanted in the first line and throw out recommends i don’t want to have in postfixed with a minus. And thats the way to go when using the metapackages.

Without using the meta-packages there are even more things possible, just install the packages you want. But here it is also true - install the recommends and just block recommends that you really don’t want - if you really know the effect that would have on the installed system:

apt install lxqt-panel lxqt-runner pcmanfm-qt qlipper


And be done with after running your chosen set with -s and checked the packages to install

You should really reconsider your position - it might be that some of the guys who work on LXQt know what they are doing in general. It is not our fault that you have no clue about the debian package management system in general. Btw. - this tend to be true for all package management systems in all distributions. One should know about those things.

Second thought: Darn, i could write the same text about if someone complain about the state of LXQt in Arch Linux and derivatives, i just had to change the packagage manager from apt to pacman and change some package names. The only reason why we don’t get much of those complaints from Arch/-derivatives users migth be: They know their tools.

(Ringo32) #15

when i do pacman -S lxqt it ask all or select, its groups, but for pcmanfm-qt is gvfs as example optional…openbox is optional…

(Alf Gaida) #16

@ringo32 - you are right, but miss one or two things:

• arch has package groups (lxqt) vs debian’s meta-packages
• arch has optional packages vs debian’s alternatives and recommends

Depending on the chosen configuration apt can be nice and tame or an unforgiving beast

• install or not install recommends by default (default=on)
• install or not install suggests by default (default=off)

Installing recommends by default has it’s pro’s and con’s.

• Recommends are great if done with care, it give a lot of choice to users
• Alternatives are great too

Big con is that the most users don’t care or don’t know about. And if they know a bit or two about it will be mostly the wrong bits

(Pedram Pourang) #17

The code of pcmanfm-qt (or libfm-qt) doesn’t depend on gvfs but could make use of it if it exists. That’s the meaning of “optional” in Arch.

In everyday life, “optional” may mean “unimportant” but the story is quite different in package management. If you don’t install gvfs, you’ll lose very important functionalities (Trash is just one of them).

So, I highly recommend installing of all optional dependencies in Arch and its derivatives. Almost everything @agaida tells about Debian’s “Recommends” is valid for Arch’s “Optional Deps”.

(Alf Gaida) #18

Maybe another word to recommends and optional - @ringo32, you mentioned openbox as optional - fully agree, but LXQt works best if there is a window manager installed. It helps a lot.

I was very verbose about that i’m not a big fan of openbox, but who cares. It is a capable WM. One might notice that i don’t have any dependencies or recommends for a WM in lxqt-core. Thats intentional, dependencies and recommends might be limiting some times. So a user with the needed knowledge will install such things by himself, even if they are not in the list. For the full lxqt metapackage i depend on xfwm4 or any other window manager with xfwm4 as default alternative. This means: A package which provides x-window-manager should be installed, if not - just install xfwm4.

If one search reddit for it this boils down to: Debian LXQt now depend to xfwm4, i don’t like it, they are stupid morons, they don’t understand LXQt and being lightweight etc pp. That’s the case to for some other packages too and one of the reasons why we don’t recommend to install LXQt over a existing installation that already have a DE and the tools from the DE installed. There are to much ways to fulfill alternative dependencies and recommends.

Example:

• Take a mate installation and apt install lxqt. Result:
• The WM will be marco - btw. a good choice for LXQt
• The DM will be lightdm instead of sddm - good choice too for people who like lightdm
• pavucontrol instead of pavucontrol-qt will take care of pulse-audio
• don’t know which archive manager mate prefers
• don’t know which clipboard manager mate prefers
• network will likely be handled by network-manager-gnome and network-manager instead of connman and cmst - why not, resonable choices
• the irc client will be likely hexchat instead of quassel - which is fine too

One can play this game with a different DE like GNOME, KDE, Cinnamon, XFCE etc - the installed things will differ but will be there, maybe not the packages we would see as first choice, but - who cares. There will be some packages i forget right now, duplicated services which might work against the other or far more funny: Because of the nature of systemd and parallel starts it might be funny to watch which daemon start first and win for a certain service. So there is plenty room to play with.

(Pedram Pourang) #19

I’m not surprised: reddit is a place for telling nonsense and wasting time.